I have written before about the potential dangers of barbell squats. What gets me is how some people make fun of leg extensions as being unnatural yet have no reservations about recommending barbell squats.
Of course, it is natural to squat, but squats appear to be a mobility movement, not a weight-bearing movement. You go into a deep squat to pick something off the ground or to rest. If you want to pick something up heavy, you deadlift.
Over the course of watching my kids over a number of years, I have never, ever seen them do anything resembling a weighted squat. Yet I've seen them do other common movements many, many times. I've seen them run, jump, and deadlift thousands of time. Bodyweight squats – thousands of times. But a squat with weight on the shoulders (or something even close to that) – I've never seen it.
So how can weighted squats be an evolutionary or "natural" movement if they're never naturally practice during childhood? Answer: they aren't.
I feel all it will take is a few top coaches or athletes to drop the weighted squat for others to catch on. Deadlifts are the natural way to lift heavy objects. Coaches can still use heavy deadlifts to help athletes develop strength and mass.
Barbel squats are something I’ve never participated in as it never ever felt “right” to me. I played soccer in college and was the only person on the team that did not squat. My short 5-10 yard burst was the fastest on the team.
From an evolutionary perspective…..and throughout history have tried getting stronger…I don’t think a weight loaded squat was ever part of the mix. Ancient Scottish highland type competitions involved carrying a very heavy log…but the would not “squat” with it.
Marc
I love barbell squats. Every form of them. I know of no other exercise that strengthens my legs, muscle tendon etc. than the squat does. I do see them as functional. You see, I like to climb mountains. This requires carrying a 20 to 40 lbs. pack up hill and down hill. Squats help prepare my legs for both the uphill and downhill. I am afraid lunges and deads while complementary, just won’t do the trick. I also do Olympic lefts and these help me with the more dynamic movements that may be required like talus hopping which requires jumping and landing. When I first started climbing it didn’t matter how much climbing I did that year. My knees and tendons would be shot from the downhill portion. Not anymore. Not since I started squatting and Oly lifting.
Not evolutionary? I think man has carried heavy loads up and downhill for a very long time. Picture it f you will after killing a deer throwing a deer carcass over your shoulders and walking hill and dale back to camp.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the great perspective on the barbell squat not being considered ‘paleo.’ While I agree that it might not be as natural to load a deep squat position as it is to deadlift something up off the ground, I disagree that coaches will drop the squat. It is one of the fundamental and foremost methods to strengthen the lower body for sport (jumping, landing, throwing, etc.). Natural? Debatable. Effective? Absolutely. Now just be sure to do it safely and you’ve got it made.
My $.02. Thanks!
Best,
Chris
What do you think are the main faults of your a priori paleo reasoning? What proof do you have that all movements non-paleo are bad?
BTW, I’ve front squatted in “real life,” and I imagine that our ancestors could of done of a similar thing. So, you are wrong anyway.
“What proof do you have that all movements non-paleo are bad?” I never said this was so.
With a barbell squat, you are talking about a weighted movement. From my reasoning above, I argue that that the historic/evolutionary body position for picking up heavy weight is the deadlift. As such, loading the body in positions it was not “designed” for can increase the risk of injury.
Greg,
Carrying heavy loads… ABSOLUTELY!! Couldn’t agree more. Taking that heavy load and going ass to ankles…No, I just don’t see that one.
Chris, great perspective. Natural perhaps not…effective yes. But at what price? I’d rather move like a tai chi teacher at age 65 than a MMA fighter at 65. Natural movement will keep you going fluidly much longer in life I believe.
Marc
While there may not be an evolutionary antecedent for a weighted squat (unlike and unweighted bodyweight squat) this does not mean that the movement isn’t useful or beneficial if properly applied. Sharing ideas over an electronic network of computers with individuals outside of our immediate kin group also lacks an evolutionary analog yet here we are. The “paleo” v “not paleo” distinction is not enough although it provides a fertile basis for developing hypothesis. I would like to see references that support your hypothesis and in the meantime, here is an article that refutes the assertion that “squats are bad”…http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/11/coaching/coaching.html
Marc, in the mountains we call it high-stepping. It’s not always small steps. Sometimes you have to step up on boulders or do a little rock climbing “ass to ankles” as you put it. Sometimes with your ass a little lower but with an upper body assist.
IMHO, squat is the single best exercise for full body development. It may not be Paleo, but doing them connects my body and my mind like anything else.
Picking up, yes. Carrying, no. Humans carry heavy loads on their shoulders not at the waist. When you carry that load it is not always going to be on flat ground. It’s going to be uphill, downhill, and sometimes over obstacles. How would you train for this? Me, I use the barbell squat.
“Loading the body in positions it was not ‘designed’ for…” You mean like the bottom of the squat where stress on the knee is neutral? Injury occurs when you try to get out of this position with your quads not your hips. Try a simple exercise. Get down in a squat if you can. Now from the bottom of the squat try to stand up. If you try to go straight up using your quads you will feel stress on your knees. Now try it by lifting your butt first and opening the hips. Or put another way push your butt out then up. You will then notice no stress on the knees. Technique matters just like in a deadlift.
Thinking back now on my days of powerlifting, the only time
I got injured was with squats. When you step back and look at it
reasonable, it is pretty laughable putting really heavy weights across your shoulders and squating with it. Yea, it will build
your leg strength and fortify your whole body…but it is scarey looking… but also think about Olympic lifts…they are not something you would naturally do either…
He never really said “bad”…just not a natural movement that primitive man would be doing…I really
don’t see primitive man throwing a deer across his shoulders either, unless he was trying to impress a young, primal lady. It just wouldn’t be an effecient way of transporting it…they would have probably cut it up first…
You surely implied that all non-paleo movements are bad, since any non-paleo movement is a movement we are not designed for. As you said, any movement we are not designed for increase the risk of injury.
As I said though, you are probably incorrect about our ancestors never squatting down and lifting something up with the weight at shoulder level.
At any rate, I don’t even think you can make the claim that we never squatted with weight, or make any claim about how common it was.
Neal,
Again, I’m talking about a LOADED movement. If someone waves their legs in a non-Paleo manner, I doubt there is much risk.
If you’re putting 100s of poounds on your back, above your spine, in a position for which the body is not suited for, then yes, I believe it increases the chance of injury.
My “claim” is a hypothesis based on childhood movement patterns. Young mammals naturally engage in movements that aid in adulthood success in foraging. As I said in the post, I have never seen my kids do anything resembling a weighted squat movement.
I will say again, effective YES, natural probably not. Again at what price? What are you after?
I want to play tennis when I’m 70 and surf. I just don’t think that doing weighted squats gets you there…thats really my only “argument” about this.
Marc
In reference to Bill DeSimone’s Congruent Exercise works, top-loaded squats are biomechanically very dangerous due to the structure of the spine and the nature of movements required to set up/begin/end the exercise.
That being said, an alternative offered is weighted belt squats – which put the weight at the hips and offer a safer way to go about the exercise. Thoughts?
I think belt squats would probably be safer than regular squats, but again, I think the deadlift would be just as effective for strengthening.
How is the squat better in developing your arms than deadlifting? Do you need someone to spot you while you are
deadlifting?
I wonder the difference in injury prevalence vs. efficacy for low-bar vs. high-bar back squats. Personally, I have only ever been injured from powerlifting cycles, not Olympic weightlifting cycles. Again, just an n=1 perspective. Thanks!
This whole ” is squatting paleo or not” discussion is a little silly. I think we all are really overthinking this. In fact, topics such as these in the paleo community make me want to go eat some grains. Maybe paleo man didn’t squat with a heavy load on his shoulders, across his back or even overhead but, he probably didn’t deadlift for reps either. Spine biomechanist Stuart Mcgill has shown us how a properly performed loaded squat whether unilaterally or bilaterally can improve spinal health and athletic performance. Gray Cook has shown us the benefit of a loaded overhead squat in assessing faulty movement patterns. Author Peter McAllister of ”Manthropology” discussed the evidence of early humans running equally as fast as Usain Bolt. Early humans could do this because it was their job…, they probably had to engage in some form of strenuous activity daily that required some form of heavy lifting, carrying, squatting or sprinting. This was their ”job” as they did it day in and day out to survive. Today, our job is to sit hunched over at our desks all day and then come home and hunch over some more while we argue on the internet about loaded squatting. We would all best be served by engaging in a little (or maybe alot) n=1 experimentation with all different kinds of loaded squats…, because I can tell ya that ”third world squatting” picking up teddy bears off the floor for the rest of your Life is not the key to optimal strength, power, speed, health or longevity. Now go squat!
FYI, Gray Cook has questioned the value of loaded squats and suggested squats are a mobility movement.
Also, I would say if someone is older and can still do a third world squat, that this is a great sign of health.
Hi, Matt. Most people don’t realize the spinal compression and how badkly barbell squats damage and wear out the knees. These Strongman competitors have both knees replaces before age 30.
I think leg presses , leg extensions are far superior. Squats only gave me sore back, sor eknees and overly large, out of proportion buttocks. LOL !
I think barbell squats are dogma, nothing more. I agree that they do not fit in with primal fitness at all.
Perhaps its not about it being safe or un-safe/ evolutionary or non-evolutionary. Maybe it not even about being right or wrong. Imagine there are times when you would use the squat and other times when you would not. I suppose that its not a such a black and white theory. Fuzzy logic is just that… fuzzy. The song and verse, “there is a time for every season.”
I appreciate you making me think Matt.